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Since the two-part radio programme produced by Daniel Caux and originally broadcast on the France Culture channel in November and December 1971 is now available online I thought it might be useful to add some kind of breakdown here. The timings are approximate (music fades out, interviews fade in etc.) but this should give an idea of what the programme contains. Since the programme was originally broadcast, some of the material has been released elsewhere (the interviews with Ayler and Don Cherry are in the Holy Ghost box set) but I have highlighted the items which I believe are ‘new’, including some extracts from the second concert at the Fondation Maeght.
My Name Is Albert Ayler. Part 1: Spiritual Unity. Currently available on the France Culture website.
0:00 Station announcement and description of programme. 2:20 Original programme begins. Titles and credits. 4:29 Music: Unidentified Ayler track. 5:48 Albert Ayler interview with Daniel Caux. (This is the interview recorded on 28th July 1970 in Saint Paul de Vence and first published in 'L'Art Vivant' (No. 17, February, 1971), reprinted in 'The Wire' (No. 227, January, 2003) and included in the Holy Ghost box set.) 7:32 Music: Extract from a Benny Goodman Quartet track. 7:45 Ayler interview. 9:15 Music: Extract from (presumably) a Little Walter track. 9:33 Ayler interview. 10:49 Music: Extract from a Sousa march: 'The Washington Post'. 11:13 Ayler interview. 12:39 Music: Unidentified Ayler track. 13:00 Ayler interview. 13:56 Music continues. 14:45 Ayler interview. 16:59 Music: 'Free' from The First Recordings. 19:23 Ayler interview. 20:39 Music: Extract from a Cecil Taylor track. 21:05 Alan Silva interview. 23:24 Music: Spoken Introduction to My Name Is Albert Ayler followed by 'Bye Bye Blackbird'. 25.10 Sunny Murray interview. 26:33 Music: 'Summertime' from My Name Is Albert Ayler. 35:40 John Tchicai interview. 38:21 Music: Extract from a Cecil Taylor track. 40:10 Albert Ayler interview. 41:10 Music continues. 41:25 Sunny Murray interview. 42:46 Alan Silva interview. 44:38 Music: Unidentified Ayler track. 44:54 Archie Shepp interview. 48:44 Music: 'Witches and Devils' from Spirits. 49:35 Sunny Murray interview. 50:42 Music: 'Witches and Devils' from Spirits continues. 56:48 Bernard Stollman interview (in French). 1:00:46 Music: 'Ghosts' from Spiritual Unity. 1:00:56 Bernard Stollman interview (in French). 1:01:37 Music: 'Ghosts' from Spiritual Unity continues. 1:02:37 Sunny Murray interview. 1.05:03 Music: New York Eye and Ear Control. 1:07:15 John Tchicai interview. 1:08:41 Music: New York Eye and Ear Control continues. 1:08:55 John Tchicai interview. 1:09:28 Music: New York Eye and Ear Control continues. 1:14:09 Don Cherry interview. 1:16:48 Music: 'Ghosts' from The Hilversum Session. 1:24:36 Don Cherry interview. 1:27:05 Music: Extract from an unidentified Gospel session. 1:27:20 Don Cherry interview. 1:29:57 Music: 'C.A.C.' from The Hilversum Session. 1:35:04 Moki and Don Cherry interview. 1:39:11 Sunny Murray interview. 1:40:58 Music: 'Infant Happiness' from The Hilversum Session. 1:47:11 Albert Ayler interview. 1:48:15 Music: Unidentified Ayler track. 1:48:28 Albert Ayler interview. 1:49:27 Music: Unidentified Ayler track continues. 1:49:47 Albert Ayler interview. 1:50:40 Milford Graves interview. 1:51:58 Music: 'Bells' from Bells. 1:52:27 Bernard Stollman interview (in French). 1:53:33 Music: 'Bells' from Bells continues. 2:05:35 Unidentified French voices. 2:05:56 Alan Silva interview. 2:06:42 Albert Ayler interview. 2:07:32 Sunny Murray interview. 2:08:34 Milford Graves interview. 2:09:46 Music: 'Justice' (?) from Sonny's Time Now. 2:10:07 Extract (in French) from Black Music by Leroi Jones (Amiri Baraka). 2:13:24 Music: 'Justice' (?) from Sonny's Time Now continues. 2:14:41 Music: 'Black Art' from Sonny's Time Now. 2:21:20 Albert Ayler interview. 2:22:16 Archie Shepp interview. 2:24:27 Music: 'Spirits Rejoice' from Spirits Rejoice. 2:28:40 Albert Ayler interview. 2:29:12 Sunny Murray interview. 2:30:43 Music: 'Spirits Rejoice' from Spirits Rejoice continues. 2:31:42 Albert Ayler interview. 2:32:33 Beaver Harris interview. 2:36:24 Music: Ayler concert at Salle Pleyel, Paris, November 13, 1966. 2:42:00 Milford Graves interview. 2:44:30 Music: Ayler concert in Paris, 1966 continues. 2:48:20 End credits. 2:50:37 END.
My Name Is Albert Ayler. Part 2: Love Cry. Currently available on the France Culture website.
0:00 Station announcement and description of programme. 1:47 Original programme begins. Titles and credits. 4:05 Music: Ayler concert at Salle Pleyel, Paris, November 13, 1966. 8:54 Albert Ayler interview. 9:12 Music: Ayler concert in Paris, 1966 continues. 20:31 Music: 'Dancing Flowers' from Love Cry. 23:00 Milford Graves interview. 25:03 Music: 'Universal Indians' from Love Cry. 27:30 Milford Graves interview. 28:57 Music: 'Universal Indians' from Love Cry continues. 30:08 Alan Silva interview. 31:54 Music: 'Ghosts' from Love Cry. 34:45 Milford Graves interview. 35:00 'To Mr. Jones I Had A Vision' from The Cricket (in French). [36:07 Music in background: 'Angels' from Spirits Rejoice.] 43:04 'Mr. Jones' ends, 'Angels' continues. 44:54 Albert Ayler interview. 47:05 Milford Graves interview. 48:12 Music: Funeral of John Coltrane. 54:41 Albert Ayler interview. 55:21 Music: 'For John Coltrane' from Live in Greenwich Village. 1:09:11 Albert Ayler interview. 1:10:19 Music: 'Message from Albert' from New Grass. 1:14:11 Albert Ayler interview. 1:14:55 Music: 'New Generation' from New Grass. 1:19:57 Sunny Murray interview. [1:21:17 Music (in background): 'Everybody's Movin'' from New Grass.] 1:22:28 Music: 'Everybody's Movin'' from New Grass continues. 1:23:02 Bernard Stollman interview (in French). 1:23:58 Music: 'Everybody's Movin'' from New Grass continues. 1:24:21 Alan Silva interview. 1:25:39 Music: 'Oh! Love of Life' from Music Is The Healing Force of the Universe. 1:29:19 Archie Shepp interview. 1:33:28 Music: 'Masonic Inborn, Part 1' from Music Is The Healing Force .... 1:34:42 Albert Ayler and Mary Maria interview. 1:35:44 Music: 'Masonic Inborn' from Music Is The Healing Force ... continues. 1:37:11 Albert Ayler interview. 1:38:40 Alan Silva interview. 1:40:39 Music: 'Masonic Inborn' from Live on the Riviera (i.e. track 3). 1:47:51 Unidentified French voice (over applause following music). 1:49:21 Music: Unidentified. 'Masonic Inborn' is from the first F. M. concert (without Call Cobbs) on July 25th, the applause then segues into the applause from the July 27th version of 'Masonic Inborn' and there is a fragment of another, unreleased track, from that concert. 1:51:06 Alan Silva interview. 1:51:46 Music: 'Again Comes The Rising of the Sun' from second F.M. concert - unreleased. 1:56:12 Allen Blairman interview. 1:58:00 Music: Unidentified - from the second F. M. concert - possibly unreleased. 2:03:54 Allen Blairman interview. 2:04:32 Music continues. 2:04:38 Leroy Jenkins interview. 2:06:34 Music continues. 2:09:48 Leroy Jenkins interview. 2:12:06 Albert Ayler interview. 2:14:00 Music: 'Thank God for Women' from second F. M. concert - unreleased. 2:20:46 Unidentified sounds. Unidentified French voice. (This begins a sequence on the death of Albert Ayler, so I assume it's recorded near the East River, New York. The short extracts are taken from the interviews already used in the programme.) 2:22:58 Leroy Jenkins interview. 2:23:50 Unidentified French voice reading a letter from the N.Y.P.D. 2:24:32 Leroy Jenkins interview. 2:25:15 Archie Shepp interview. 2:26:50 Milford Graves interview. 2:28:11 Leroy Jenkins interview. 2:28:56 Sunny Murray interview. 2:32:34 Alan Silva interview. 2:35:13 Sunny Murray interview. 2:36:10 Don Cherry interview. 2:36:40 Music: 'Music Is The Healing Force of the Universe' from Nuits de la Fondation Maeght. 2:46:06 End credits. 2:48:19 FIN. ***
Before Johann Haidenbauer let me know that the Daniel Caux radio programme was available online I had been working on another copy, trying (and largely failing) to transcribe the interviews. I had some help from Richard Koloda, and I intended to pass it along to someone else to translate the French portions, but the process was so difficult (mainly because the French translation obscured the English original) that I finally gave up. I could say that one day I will complete the transcriptions, but I’d be lying, so I thought I’d just add what I’d already done here. There are lots of gaps, and towards the end I was beginning to lose the will to live, so I skipped a Sunny Murray and never got round to Allen Blairman and Leroy Jenkins. Perhaps someone with two good ears will complete the task. The Albert Ayler interview, as I said above, is available in the Holy Ghost box, and a transcription (or at least an English retranslation of Daniel Caux’ s original transcription) is available here. I also started transcribing the Don Cherry interview before I realised that it, too, was in the Holy Ghost box, and part of it is also available on youtube. Also, the French translation of an extract from Leroi Jones’s (Amiri Baraka’s) Black Music is partly taken from the sleevenotes to The New Wave in Jazz, available here, and Ayler’s essay for The Cricket, 'To Mr. Jones I Had A Vision' is also on this site. So, for what it’s worth, here are some rough transcriptions of some of the other interviews in the programme.
THE INTERVIEWS
My Name Is Albert Ayler. Part 1: Spiritual Unity.
21:05 Alan Silva interview. "Like, if you listen to, the only way we can really document that is through recordings, and the first recording he made, it was, the first time I heard it was some years later, and it's just fantastic. What he does to, I think he plays Green Dolphin Street, you know what I mean, and this album is important because, everyone should hear that album because then they would understand what he meant by freedom. It wasn't freedom within like an organised tradition. It was a freedom that came from knowing, you know, ____________ Charlie Parker, a freedom in which you say what you can say. What makes a jazz, a really great jazz performer, is not what he may say technically on his horn, but like what he's trying to say of himself because there are so many carbon copies of sound, like who is influenced by whom ___________ philosophical point in which he knew that he had to create something rare, or something of himself and not too many musicians reach that point.
25:10 Sunny Murray interview. When Al heard us in Sweden, we were only playing like drums, piano and alto - Henry Grimes was in Belle Vue at that time and couldn't leave. And Al didn't really, what you would say, join the band, but he ___ such a response ___ I mean I checked him out ______ a strange aura about him. Sometimes this comes with a woman, you can fall in love, like the whole band can fall in love with a ________ not realising what love is. So he
35:40 John Tchicai interview. I think I met Albert Ayler for the first time in 1960 or 61 in a small restaurant in Copenhagen called _______ and there every Sunday they had jam sessions where I played with Danish saxophone player Max _____ and _________. Then Albert Ayler came from Sweden. I think he had been working over there, he had several ___ jobs and I think he also wanted to get out of a job he had at a restaurant because he played something that they didn't understand. And then he came to Copenhagen and some Sundays he came down to this restaurant and played with us. And many people thought it was very strange and of course I liked what he did right away ____ I've been happy to play with Albert Ayler when I've done it. I've done it several times in New York and also in Copenhagen of course. I remember there was a time in Copenhagen when Cecil Taylor was playing at the Montmartre and there was some talk about - he was there just with Sunny Murray and Jimmy Lyons - and there was some talk about Albert Ayler was going to be in the group also but then maybe ________ so he was just there and __________ he couldn't get paid for. Then there was also the times where they had what they called October Revolution. I'm so lucky that I ____ one of the concerts there at some cellar at 91st Street and I think it was Broadway. That was so important _____ 91st Street cellar ________
41:25 Sunny Murray interview. Leroi had a book _________ Flying Dutchman _________ play for that sonofabitch. Then he had another book, he was publishing books, selling like hot cakes. ________ I got in a fight one night _______ this guy didn't like the music and him and I went outside up on Third Avenue and Fifth Street ______ nose busted ______ the guy apologised _________ I came back, Albert came out with a stick and everybody 'You ok' __________ and we finished the job. _____ 'Fighting over music, that's funny man.' That was very funny. But you know we got into some funny incidents like that in Scandinavia because we were just like two kids _________ it was a nice feeling. I mean talking about Al right now is a nice feeling. ______________
42:46 Alan Silva interview. I met Albert Ayler in 1963 in a small club right here in the Lower East Side. I was working ___________ it was a strip club, not a strip place, but it had ladies who stripped __ a piano bar _____ So on weekends _____ at the back of the room and we used to set up on the stage and we used to play a little bit more with piano, bass and drums and Albert Ayler came into the room and talked to the guy who had the job ____ and said 'Well, I'd like to play'. ______ 'OK'. ___ 'Night in Tunisia.' Well, you got to remember that this room that we're in, like a piano bar room, if you know piano bars everybody says 'What tune do you want' you know, like popular tunes, you know, but at that particular time on the weekend we could play a little bit more freer, in the sense that we would play _________ and Albert Ayler began to play the tune and actually he played 90 minutes ________________________
44:54 Archie Shepp interview. The first time I heard him, Albert, was at a concert, it was given at the old Jazz Gallery. Although I had known Albert before then, I hadn't actually, in fact I'd heard him play ___________ on the same concert bill. And at this time they had, I think, two or three groups, one was my group and the other would be Albert's group. And I remember being particularly impressed _________ at this time, because I remember when he came on and played, the whole house came to attention. Everything stopped. Because - and Sunny Murray was playing with him - they were playing something completely different. _______ including myself, not that I wasn't familiar with what they were doing, but I wasn't _____. In fact, I remember we had played Airegin, ___ Sonny Rollins, and at that time I was more interested in working out certain fundamental things, that was why I was studying closer the work of Mr. Rollins because he is one of our very greatest artists. Really an understanding of the saxophone isn't complete unless one does understand _________ However, Albert was playing completely different. When I say that I mean it was so different that everybody stopped, including myself. You know, it sounded as though pipes were bursting, and things were blowing up, this is the way he and Sunny were playing that night. ____ Very exciting music. In fact I learned something that night. What I learned was how well I could play. It was strange in a way, because I don't mean that Albert wasn't playing very beautifully, which he was, ___ he was singing that night, which he was, it was just that I found his music very refreshing. An original black experience. One which I learned from. Not that Albert Ayler was an influence in that sense, a teacher, he was an influence as a colleague. Because I'm sure that perhaps I influenced some of his music too. But I think there is that kind of rapport among artists in general. What I liked about Albert was his concept, his freshness of concept and his energy, because he gave everything to that moment, and I understood. Because at that time I suppose we were both working with similar ideas. I think technically, perhaps, ____ into certain things that of course I would have been into at that time. __________ really his ability to be completely himself.
49:35 Sunny Murray interview. ___________ that era into the Roaring Twenties ______ jazz and then bebop and so on, you know. What we could capture sometimes, when I was with Al, we could capture a dirge, you know, we could capture ______________ just starting out, from scratch, you know __________________ the tune, 'Witches & Devils' on the album Spirits, now that particular album was the most frightening album, when I say frightening I mean ___________ such a passionate, strong, I mean it's really hard to put into words.
1:02:37 Sunny Murray interview. I would say, changing mood plays a part ______________________ it was like one time Albert was not from here _____________ it was like that he wasn't from here he wasn't from there ______ and he believed this. There were times when Albert said he had died already. He used to tell me, "Man, I'm dead, don't worry _________ I'm dead already." And he really got me into that _____ At first I didn't understand it _____ he was meaning I know to ___ what he was meaning but _________ it can only be about what it is until it's something else. Whatever they said it's about ____ something else. ____ It took a while for me to understand this kind of philosophy, then I saw it clear. ___ this way ____ the shortest point between two understandings, this philosophy that Albert had and it worked. ________ your situation on the level, on the terms of this society ____ only from a spiritual point of view ________ millionaire. It was about nothing, so it was most important still to ___ That's why I felt with Al ___ giving his time to the spirit, it was like, it didn't matter to give his time to the people, because the people _________ two blocks away, three blocks away, I could tell it was him.
1:07:15 John Tchicai interview. That was when I had started to play with Roswell Rudd in the New York Art Quartet. And all of a sudden this project came up. A painter called Mike Snow wanted to make a film with music. And I think he did it that way, at first he called it a music ______ and after that he made a montage on music ______ Well then we got together. He had a big loft studio and we got together and had some rehearsals. And I remember it was right before Albert Ayler went to Europe with Don Cherry and Gary Peacock and Sunny Murray. So it was sort of ___________ I have seen the film a couple of times and it's very interesting to see how we look at that time. And, of course, later it came out on ESP Records with Bernard Stollman as the promoter.
1:08:55 John Tchicai interview. I suppose the only part ____ I just accept it as ___ creative source, other than that I don't know. And I think it was one of the most pure and true creative sources __ that happened when we started to play. And I like it and I'm happy that he was here.
1:39:11 Sunny Murray interview. His conviction and compassion for those that he's about and those that he'd play about ____ to each other ____ he'd tell you about something that had just happened to people in Russia ______ intellectual level ____ spiritual level ______________ I mean I know that because I felt that very strongly on Spirits _____ One thing that he really knew was that he was being controlled by spirits, you know. Like, the big problem between the both of us, was that we both - now I'm going to tell you something that sounds kinda outside _____ we were born with ___ over our eyes. I don't know if you understand, and I can see spirits in the shapes in the air and the dark and Albert could too. And I think Don Cherry is kinda hung up like that too. And so I _______ with Al I found out that we were telling each other secrets of our lives and so ___ very warm and very close ______
1:50:40 Milford Graves interview. He was _____ such bad conditions in this country for somebody who was really ____ himself, you know, ____ I mean you take somebody ______ number of years, but I would say definitely that he was playing his horn _____ experience as a musician ____ somebody really knows deep down inside ___ and he comes out here to present himself ____ and people just take you like as a joke, it can put something on a person. Like a lot of people ________ strange and titles of tunes like Ghosts and certain things like people say wow that's like he was very superstitious, or crazy, or he wasn't _______ I think that was an external thing ____ people didn't understand and that's something that you have to keep yourself together on. But I found him quite different.
2:05:56 Alan Silva interview. Fantastic night, in that the band that he had ___ was as tight and ... beautiful band in that the energy in the group was really together, there was a very close unity in the group and they were playing fantastic music. It was just like ... Albert and Sunny Murray is like John Coltrane and Elvin Jones. The relationship between drum and saxophone was so solid and it was beautiful.
2:07:32 Sunny Murray interview. I felt that Albert was swinging, you know. I thought Albert had latched onto a new way to swing the tenor saxophone. All he needed ______ gain anything from my music it would be because of the purity of what I'm doing _________ which was very selfish of myself and my responsibility but it was an experience that I knew I'd never catch up to ______ I mean Al was so powerful.
2:08:34 Milford Graves interview. He had a very organic type of thing going from his whole body - you know it wasn’t just intellectual. ____ I mean, people can tell by his tunes, the title of a lot of his tunes that he was very involved with this sort of spiritualism, and this spiritualism gave him a very ... understanding of himself. I mean, so he really played, like he had his whole self playing ___ has a tune, or hears a particular composition ____ I’m here and the composition is there, I mean, you know the composition itself that’s just one thing, and so therefore, he didn’t have to think of like two different things happening, it was one thing. In other words, like his whole concentration and meditation like all things in himself. So, I mean, it gave him a quite different _____
2:22:16 Archie Shepp interview. I mean we have to recognise that we articulate many of our political and racial frustrations ___ black ___ in different ways. This happened to be Albert's way of articulating ____ I don't think it was spirituality, I think people may choose to just see a kind of mysticism, religionism in his approach but a deal of political, militant ___ to Albert Ayler's music _____ There's one piece in particular which sounds like the Marseillaise. Now to me that's a marching song. It may bear a religious title but it's quite militant. I think we ought to begin to see Black Music in other than titular terms, that is in terms of the way the title ____ yes, precisely, purely didactic sense or being, we can't take these things just verbatim, from the titles that they're given. For example, Trane writes many things, like Expression or A Love Supreme, but within that poem, that piece of poetry, there are many militant moods, and I think it's only reasonable to expect that even if one were to write a great love poem, it would only be great because of the contrasts. Because somewhere in that poem you have to say something about what _______
2:29:12 Sunny Murray interview. And then again, Albert didn't really have any basic affiliation in terms of, I don't mean in terms of love of our country, I mean this was never _____ marches and all this ___ stimulate ____ French compositions. Because he felt 'I want to connect people now' this seems ___ He wanted to go on and play Sweden ________ I don't know why. I know one of the reasons was because people were not open to meeting and living together ______ Many a night I went home (sings) ___ 'What're you humming' Then when I went to France, I used to whistle the tune, all the cab drivers used to join me, you know. I knew it all, I knew the whole tune, I knew ___ the bridge, I knew the ___ and it's a very long arrangement. A lot of people don't know, they know the top lines. Like that part out of Bells (sings) ___ what was done with that was amazing.
2:32:33 Beaver Harris interview. I met Albert Ayler in, I think, the year 1958 ____ armed forces for his country when he was like a younger man. And he was in the army band at Fort Knox, Kentucky. And he had a very big and powerful sound and he was playing out of the so-called honky-tonk way. I could hear that he had other things ____ And then shortly after meeting him there, he shipped out to Europe. And I ended up seeking for more musical expression. And I think he found an opportunity _____ musicians that he found _____ deep down I think there was constantly the urge to develop even more, he wanted to get bigger fast. Then I saw Albert again after '58, I saw him again in '66. I think that was when we did a thing called Black Art _____ [(another voice): The New Wave in Jazz. The Village Gate.] Well he developed his concept of freedom. Not freedom in the sense of the word but freedom in the sense that he was looking for something to do with what he was gifted with and _________ People, they tend to call it free music or avant-garde, ___ from his honky-tonk times. So, I know that his convictions, he lived out his convictions. He wasn't a strange person, he wasn't a nonspiritual person. He had roots. And I had a chance to play and work with Albert Ayler ______ [(another voice): You played Paris __] We played all over Europe.__ [(another voice): That was about '65, '66?] That was in '66. [Third voice: You went all round, you went to Stockholm, Paris.] Stockholm, Paris, Bordeaux, Switzerland.
2:42:00 Milford Graves interview. And he felt as though, you know, there was a higher supreme person here, and you know he had contact with him, and he felt as though he had contact with him and he felt he had contact with those who gave him answers. We communicated , we communicated. He felt that as though he was communicating with a higher supreme being. This is what we had talked about. And things that he'd seen. And things a lot of times maybe orally or visually had seen visually happen. And certain things did happen, you know that he’d seen before they actually happened. He never talked about any technique. I mean, he never got into a very academic thing. ____ You didn’t learn that much about him. ____ Like I say, he was moving like a spirit, it was just like a spirit. _____ Lots of times we personally played , that I can say that everything else sounded just like a spirit - no common form or shape - just all over the place. I mean Albert really mentally left earth, I mean he really, you know, a person can call it self-hypnotism ____ I mean after a certain amount of time of believing, I mean, you keep telling yourself, telling yourself, constantly telling yourself, ‘physically I’m no longer here.’ You know, the names of the titles of his songs, he gave them a lot of spiritual names, religious names. Till you leave. Till you leave. Till you actually leave. You’re physically here. Then, mentally you come to another place. Then when you come - then when you face another person, you know, and this person is so tuned in with so-called earth-life, I mean, you know like, I mean like Albert didn’t do this off no drugs. If he did, you know, I didn’t know about it. For all my experiences, he did it off belief, and he only did it because like he was trying to reach something through his music, you know, to convey a feeling in a person ___ it takes people away from just ordinary things they’re hearing ______
My Name Is Albert Ayler. Part 2: Love Cry.
23:00 Milford Graves interview. In 1965 ____ well we used to get together, you know, a few times _____ I think the music kind of like changed you know, when we got together ___ It became a lot more intense. The energy level went a step higher, than what it was before, and one other thing, that you know, like a lot of times I like had to hold myself back or restrain when I played with a lot of other musicians ___ like, volume wise ____ and certain tone qualities ____ Not restrain myself, like I would say, I would say play just like I would play with another drummer, without worrying about playing too loud, you know, or doing things tone-wise, with not to be related to the horn. I mean he had a certain tone quality. If you listen to Love Cry, like, that’s one thing, and if you heard us like in concert ____ so like a lot of things, I may be saying like as far as restraining myself or ____ tone-wise or volume-wise. Like you wouldn’t really be able to see, like, judge what’s there on the record. The people at the concert, you know, they would be able to tell this right off hand. ___ Like everything, I would let myself really go without really worrying about, I’m saying, will the horn player be heard? ____ I didn’t have to worry about that.
27:30 Milford Graves interview. Certain people, would like what Albert called it, you know, maybe “spiritualism’. But when you got very high. ____ you’d have to concentrate and worry about oh I’m playing too loud. I should play soft. It just happened. Sometimes, we played very soft There were times when it got intense, I would say controlled emotion, I would say, not emotion that you know you just can’t control. Controlled emotion, whereas if it calls for playing very, very, very loud, like, we went that way. See, without trying to balance each other out no matter how loud we went. A lot of people can't do that with drums, you know. If the drums reach a certain point volume-wise where it just drowns out everybody else. So that wasn't with him. Cause I’ve heard him play with about two or three drummers on stage, and he played alto man, and you heard him over everybody else. I mean that’s something he just had. He didn’t really have to have amplifiers. He didn’t need that. He already had it natural in him. You know, that's the thing that was different, like I’m saying. It's not that I want to play loud on purpose. There are certain times if intensities you just feel like playing loud. I’m gonna do it. ___ With him, it didn’t matter. It did matter with other people, you know ____ In other words, like the organic thing ____
30:08 Alan Silva interview. I’d been working with him off and on for the last three to four years, and Sonny is involved with swing, but his swing has not been felt yet by the people. That’s his biggest problem. In that drums and rhythm have to be feeled by the people, before they’re understood, that is uncommunicatable. You can't feel the beats or the pulse, or the total swing or the energy of the drum until you can identify with it totally. And I felt was, Milford and Albert, when I played with them, ‘cause I played like several gigs, several jobs, with them, and that Milford is punctuating, you know, where like Sonny lifts, he lifts, he lifts up the horn player. It did change Albert’s playing in a sense, like - I mean he could deal with it. There’s a greatness in their playing. I don't say there's nothing different, I don’t want to qualify the difference. Let us say the music that Milford and Albert played was different music, and different music when you hear Sonny and Albert. You’ll hear Ghosts with Sunny Murray, you see that like the same composition. What you would see is that it’s different, not to say it’s better or worse, but different.
34:45 Milford Graves interview. He wrote for The Cricket magazine ____ Leroi Jones. He wrote a piece about spiritualism, these visions that he'd seen. This would be good.
47:05 Milford Graves interview. I told him that we should take it to a higher level. I said, We should play without worrying about being professional at a funeral in America. In other words, I wanted to go forth, I want to really testify. We shouldn’t play very soft music. And I think, that’s another thing. That being that he had a spiritual thing I actually think that seeing John Coltrane lying in a casket, I think it really hit him. I think it really hit him. 'Cause I mean like he was like a thing that, he was, you could say not scared or nervous, but it seemed like this all of a sudden it got to him. Like, he was saying that he was messing with some forces, he didn’t know how to handle this. So, John Coltrane died, I mean - so I mean, there’s no sense in stopping this, it’s the way he wanted to go, so, I told him let’s take it right on through. Let the people know that this is really where it was at. You don’t have to come here and cry and all that, I said, you know like, that’s not what it’s about.
1:19:57 Sunny Murray interview.
1:24:21 Alan Silva interview. ____ she did attempt to assimilate and sang ____ I think when he did that album, when he used his voice, it showed the quality which was necessary. Because for him to sing, especially the chants, or the shouts, was for people to know that like that was coming out of the horn. and people sometimes, like it’s the old thing, well if you write some music down, and if you can’t sing it, you can’t play it. So I think he was trying to make a sort of statement that like, "Look, I can sing what I play". Musicians go around “Hey, Can you sing that, man?" So like it was a statement that like ‘Whatever I’m playing, I can sing." ____ intricate part of _____ disarming of people ____
1:29:19 Archie Shepp interview. Established white institutions _____ we've never been federally subsidised as has been classical art, poetry, the visual arts and all the rest of it. Certainly the Comedia Francaise receives a great deal more American support than Charlie Parker. I know when Marcelle Marceau comes here, he packs Carnegie Hall, wherever he's appearing. Because this is Western Art ___. If I can go back to the fact that we always wait for black people to die (I say we but I had nothing to do with that) but it seems that they always wait before they recognise first that we're people, but even before that, before they - the first thing, I think, the so-called establishment does is to recognise its economic potential. You see, if you take - Albert has worked in Europe extensively but right now everybody's concerned. You see? Wonderful. But could we have anticipated the frustration of a man. People don't anticipate the needs of black culture. [Another voice (Beaver Harris?): It's not only white people.] Right on. [Another voice: It's not only white people.] Right on. I hate Bill Cosby, Sammy Davis Jnr, Sidney Poitier and Harry Belafonte and so many more. They are the same victims of the so-called classical ____ Bill Cosby is acting like a high school teacher _________ Sammy Davis Jnr. is acting like a classical ballad singer _____ Harry Belafonte is singing so-called folk music. He's not singing for the people in the folk ghetto _____ Sidney is acting the best that he can. I've never seen him. [Another voice: Really?] The point is that it's not as Mr. Harris says a question of the black against the white or the wrong against the right. I think that's kind of the issue. It is that people really are sensitive to the music of Albert Ayler, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Archie Shepp, Beaver Harris, Roswell Rudd, Charlie Haden, Duke Ellington. But these people have to begin to realise that we have to eat. We can't live on ___ promises. We have to survive.
1:38:40 Alan Silva interview. There was one basic thing that happens with a free musician, he knows that he is fighting a battle, in that like, we expect a certain amount of resistance. Deep down in ourselves, you know what I mean? You know we might inadvertently say "well everybody is supposed to understand us." ____ we expect a certain amount of resistance. That's one of the phenomenons of human understanding. And I think he - after he did the Village concert, the Village Gate concert, the Village Theatre, he promoted that concert himself, he promoted that himself, ____ the publicity and everything, but like about 35, 40 people came to the concert. It's the Fillmore now. And I think that was very ___ because after coming from the George Wein tour, assuming that, maybe there was some credibility to his work and that, like, people should listen to his work, and he makes it available to the people to see and they don't come. This, I think, was kind of heartbreaking. I think this depression came because of the reject ___ He attempted to present the people with something that he produced it himself ___ rejected ___ and he felt it. I really think he hugely felt it. But, I mean, this does not stop a person, you know, ____ the whole period of his life when no work was available, no exposure, even though he was on record.
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